Posts by King Solomon

The only thing someone who relies on flawed arguments and fallacious reasoning deserves is a bucket of icy-cold truth. Some (like Recovery) likely fancy themselves as the local theology experts in their KH, the "go to" whiz-kids that others rely on when they have a question (imagine big fish in small ponds).

I've always felt that coddling people and their precious delusions accomplishes nothing, but only allows them to persist in their wallowing; that only wastes time living inside of a lie that they could better spend by moving on to productive activities in their lives (where hopefully you'd all agree that being suckered to place WTBTS literature in hopes of petting a lion is not a productive activity for anyone).

45

Now that they finally admitted that the Faithful & Dicsreet Slave is ONLY the Governing Body what now?

by baltar447 in

jw
friends

any thoughts on the rammifications of this?.

King Solomon

Funny bit is the FDS parable has absolutely NO element of the master communicating his wishes via messenger back to the slave: in fact, it's the opposite, where the master returns, only to be SHOCKED to DISCOVER the slave has been neglecting his duties while the master is absent. What happened to Gods omniscience, knowing events back on Earth?

Talk about Foggy-brained shoe-horning, turning parables into a prophecy with two possible outcomes (evil or good), with legions of R&F that are too foggy-brained to see it!

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

King Solomon

In another thread, Recovery posted this:

Arguments left picked apart and largely unanswered? You must not have seen how all objections were thoroughly refuted in the 'magic vs. miracles' thread.

So Recovery is declaring victory in this thread, having "thoroughly refuted ALL objections", LOL!

Let me take this opportunity to repeat and re-phrase (and to clean up the formattting of) a few challenges he DIDN'T refute.

Recovery said:

KingSolomon, All you did was quote secular authorities who speculate as to what kind of 'magic' they believe Moses employed. They speculate as to what his training would have consisted of and what it would have entailed being a son of Pharoah's daughter. It is complete conjecture, supposition, and speculation to say that Moses would have relied on Egyptian magic to perform his miracles. I think that's a stretch of immense proportions.

If you bothered to look, you would've seen that I understand that JW theology holds that the source of power matters: YHWH implies "miracle"; Satan implies "magic". So put that straw man to rest.

But why are you still arguing against a point you've clearly conceded (above), that at least ONE OT prophets (Daniel) STUDIED magic?

Here it is, if you don't want to scroll to the top of the page:

Recovery said:

The WT quotes a secular authority that says that Daniel studied magic (astrology and omens), thus agreeing with such a possibility.

So you accept only the opinions of secular authorities if they appear in JW publications? Odd, but OK, we'll work with that.

So let's just put this ONE issue in the "resolved as agreed upon" column: Recovery, Leo, Sol, the WT, and JWFacts can ALL agree on the point that Daniel studied magic.

NOW, here's where we shift to use of inductive logic, moving from "studying" to "practicing":

Does that mean it's OK for a JW to simply STUDY MAGIC?

Clearly not: as I said above, it would be a poor defense for a JW to claim that they have an Ouija Board in their house simply so they could STUDY the occult. The J.C. would likely point out that studying something implies a strong likelihood of PRACTICING.

You cannot study or learn any skill WITHOUT practice, much like you cannot learning ANY skill that involves physicality and muscle-memory (dancing, playing an instrument, mountain-climbing, reciting magical spells/incantation, magical gestures, magic rituals, etc) simply by reading a book! Without PRACTICING them.

Even subjects based in theory have a demonstration element, which is why almost all science courses (chemistry, physics, etc) have a LABORATORY component, where the student can actually repeat or carry out the experiments they read about for themselves.

And if that's not compelling enough, do you think it outlandish to accept the words of the Bible itself?

Acts 7:22: And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.

The passage is saying that Moses not only was taught the secret wisdom of the Egyptians (including magic) as a young man, but Moses also possessed the exceptional facility of reciting the magic incantations, AND in "deeds", implying he was a skilled practitioner of the magical gestures and rituals required to perform magic. He was not just good, he was "mighty", exceptionally talented at it, per Acts.

That IS PRACTICING: book smarts is not "MIGHTY in deeds".

And notice the timing (before he performed the snake trick):

Acts 7:21 refers to Moses being retrieved out of the Nile as an infant by the daughter of the Pharoah, and Acts 7:23 refers to his age (40) when returning to Egypt. Acts 7:22 can refer ONLY to practicing magic as a young man, and does NOT refer to when Moses later returned to ask Pharoah to release the Israelites, using a non-violent miracle (turning staff into serpent) to impress upon Pharoah why he should comply (and Pharoah wasn't impressed, after HIS court magicians replicated the trick).

So Acts 7:22 is itself the "smoking gun" that indicates his early education in magical arts, and Moses practicing it.

Recovery said:

Moses has to choose between Almighty God's assistance, and the assistance of the Egyptians whom he utterly demonstrated to be completely powerless with the intervention of Jehovah. Somehow, I don't find it likely to make such assertions about Moses.

"Completely powerless"? That's not what the account relates.

Remember, the Pharaoh's magicians performed the same exact trick of turning a staff into a serpent; the Pharoah didn't relent, as HE also wasn't impressed with the semantic difference between miracles and magic.

Which raises another point:

What was the source of power for Pharoah's magicians? If Satan, then what is the source of Satan's magical power?

Did YHWH forget to design Satan with an emergency shutoff switch for his "magical power", or is YHWH actively enabling the magical powers of Satan?

Perhaps Satan is running off an Energizer battery, or maybe he's gone solar?

27

The opposite of love is ......

by caliber in

jw
friends

the opposite of love is ..... is the opposite of love indifference.

is the opposite of love hate.

is the opposite of love fear.

King Solomon

Think of some random person living in a foreign country on the opposite side of the World, who you'll never know about or meet (heck: let's call him Zhong Zhei, 28).

Do you HATE him as a person? Nope. Do you LOVE him as a person? Nope. You are indifferent to him, as he's not a part of your life. Are you ignoring him? No, it's just that your respective realms of conscious existence have never overlapped, and never will. Every non-family member you've loved in the past was once a stranger to you, but you built a relationship.

Falling out of love is the same: you go your separate ways, and given enough time and other experiences (AKA moving on), and it eventually becomes someone who's name you cannot remember, or even "whatever happened to?". When even that fails to happen, you are truly indifferent.

Satanus used the example of her sister, and expressed indifference for her JW BELIEFS, and NOT indifference for her as her sister, whom presumably she loves (if not, if only loving her for the memory of shared childhood, etc). BIG difference....

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

King Solomon

Recovedy said:

KingSolomon: All you did was quote secular authorities who speculate as to what kind of 'magic' they believe Moses employed. They speculate as to what his training would have consisted of and what it would have entailed being a son of Pharoah's daughter. It is complete conjecture, supposition, and speculation to say that Moses would have relied on Egyptian magic to perform his miracles. I think that's a stretch of immense proportions.

Are you doubting a famed Egyptologist, who's forgotten more about Egyptian society (based on historical evidence) than you'll ever know? Wow....

Do you think it outlandish to accept the words of the Bible itself, which states that he was trained in the secrets of the Egyptians? Just what exactly do you think that phrase "powerful in words and deeds" means?

Moses has to choose between Almighty God's assistance, and the assistance of the Egyptians whom he utterly demonstrated to be completely powerless with the intervention of Jehovah. Somehow, I don't find it likely to make such assertions about Moses.

"Completely powerless"? Over-state much?

Remember, the Pharaoh's magicians kept up, performing the same exact trick of turning a staff into a serpent, until Moses' snake overpowered the Pharoah's serpent.

What was the source of THEIR power? What is the source of Satans magical power? Did YHWH forget to design an emergency shutoff valve for Satan's magical power feed, or does YHWH actively enable the magic of Satan?

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

King Solomon

So if Caleb is not practicing magic (per your answer above), is he studying magic? (And that defense is NOT advisable, btw, telling elders you only have a Ouija Board but only to study magic, not to practice it, lol!).

If not, then what is Caleb doing that is making YHWH "unhappy"? What's the scriptural basis for prohibiting possession of a toy that "bedazzles and imitates" something that God hates? Even as a conscience matter?

Interesting that Moses imitated Egyptian magic practices/rituals/incantations that YHWH hates to perform miracles, and Daniel imitated Babylonian magical practices that God hates, as well? Double-standard for Caleb?

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

King Solomon

jwfacts said:

You are so full of your own interpretation and defence of Watchtower doctrine, yet with your own non-Watchtower twist included, that it is only a small leap to you deciding you are above them and going it alone. You would not be the first person that has decided to start a reformed Watchtower movement.

Yep, he did it here, too, trying to claim that studying magic was acceptable, whereas practicing magic is not.

Isn't there a funny-sounding name for those JWs who go off the reservation to invent their own doctrinal interpretations over those of the GB? A word that starts with an "A"?

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

King Solomon

Recovery said:

I'm guessing it will take me at least 30 minutes to comprehend Leolaia's points, research them, and then just begin to respond.

"30 minutes?" Wow, do you really think you can learn ancient Hebrew and Greek, plus research the historical context of the passages that quickly?

I dare say SHE spent 30 minutes on it, and she's had much more experience (as a historian with an interest in ANE) researching these things than you.

Well, the good news is you always can ask Leo to explain anything you don't understand (as long as you ask her nicely, and don't try to edumacate (sic) her).

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

King Solomon

And to bring this forward (since you seemingly missed it), which show Moses STUDIED AND PRACTICED MAGIC, both to learn the proper pronounciation of magic phrases, and rituals involved. The difference was simply replacing the name of the diety he appealed to.

Acts 7:22: And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.

Moses was reared as the son of Pharaoh's daughter (Heb 11:24) and groomed for leadership; he would be given a thorough initiation into all the most arcane priestly secrets and the mysteries of Egyptian magic knowledge of his time, taught by the Kher Heb (Egyptian high priest) and priesthood in the great universities to those expected to assume positions of authority. This course of study would have included star-knowledge, necromancy, divining, and other aspects of occult lore, appealing to Egyptian dieties.

Egyptologist E.A. Wallis Budge says:

Moses was a skilled performer of magical rituals and was deeply learned in the knowledge of the
accompanying spells, incantations, and magical formulas of every description . . . [Moreover] the miracles
which he wrought . . . suggest that he was not only a priest, but a magician of the highest order and perhaps
even a Kher Heb.

While serving as a commander of the Pharoah's military forces as a young man (as suggested by non-Biblical sources), it is unlikely that he DIDN'T rely on Egyptian magic (appealing to Isis, Adon, etc) to ensure a military victory against the Ethiopians. Moses actually performed the magic tricks he learned FROM Egyptians (where the "staff turned into snake" trick was well-known amongst Egyptians), but the Torah ascribes his more-powerful magic to YHWH. So the same act is performed, but attributed to another source (YHWH vs Adon).

From:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ema/ema03.htm

From the Hebrews we receive, incidentally, it is true, considerable information about the powers of the Egyptian magician. Saint Stephen boasts that the great legislator Moses "was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians," and declares that he "was mighty in words and in deeds," 1 and there are numerous features in the life of this remarkable man which show that he was acquainted with many of the practices of Egyptian magic. The phrase "mighty in words" probably means that, like the goddess Isis, he was "strong of tongue" and uttered the words of power which he knew with correct pronunciation, and halted not in his speech, and was perfect both in giving the command and in saying the word. The turning of a serpent into what is apparently an inanimate, wooden stick, 1 and the turning of the stick back into a writhing snake, 2 are feats which have been performed in the East from the most ancient period; and the power to control and direct the movements of such venomous reptiles was one of the things of which the Egyptian was most proud, and in which he was most skilful, already in the time when the pyramids were being built.

But this was by no means the only proof which Moses gives that he was versed in the magic of the Egyptians, for, like the sage Âba-aner and king Nectanebus, and all the other magicians of Egypt from time immemorial, he and Aaron possessed a wonderful rod 3 by means of which they worked their wonders. At the word of Moses Aaron lifted up his rod and smote the waters and they became blood; he stretched it out over the waters, and frogs innumerable appeared; when the dust was smitten by the rod it became lice; and so on. Moses sprinkled ashes "toward heaven," and it became boils and blains upon man and beast; he stretched out his rod, and there was "hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous," and the "flax and the barley was smitten;" he stretched out his rod and the locusts came, and after them the darkness. Now Moses did all these things, and brought about the death of the firstborn among the Egyptians by the command of his God, and by means of the words which He told him to speak.

But although we are told by the Hebrew writer that the Egyptian magicians could not imitate all the miracles of Moses, it is quite certain that every Egyptian magician believed that he could perform things equally marvellous by merely uttering the name of one of his gods, or through the words of power which he had learned to recite; and there are many instances on record of Egyptian magicians utterly destroying their enemies by the recital of a few words possessed of magical power, and, by the performance of some, apparently, simple ceremony. 1But one great distinction must be made between the magic of Moses and that of the Egyptians among whom he lived; the former was wrought by the command of the God of the Hebrews, but the latter by the gods of Egypt at the command of man.

Later on in the history of Moses' dealings with the Egyptians we find the account of how "he stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left." When the Egyptians had come between the two walls of water, by God's command Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, "and the sea returned to his strength," and the "waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them." 1But the command of the waters of the sea or river was claimed by the Egyptian magician long before the time of Moses, as we may see from an interesting story preserved in the Westcar Papyrus. 2 This document was written in the early part of the XVIIIth dynasty, about B.C. 1550 but it is clear that the stories in it date from the Early Empire, and are in fact as old as the Great Pyramid. The story is related to king Khufu (Cheops) by Baiu-f-Râ as an event which happened in the time of the king's father, and as a proof of the wonderful powers of magic which were possessed by the priest 3 called Tchatcha-em-ânkh.